Monday, August 13, 2007

Love Finds a Way

Qur'an readers find
God-come-in-flesh
scandalous.
And it is.
How can God be God
and stoop to that?

28 comments:

Alok said...

He hasnt stooped after all, he has just abandoned us and decided never to repeat tht again....

very powerful verse!

again

missmellifluous said...

It is amazing that God condescends to walk with feet of men. Other religious can see the significance of Jesus' actions much better than we can sometimes, however, they fail to follow through and respond to Jesus' great love. They fail to believe it's true. They, and sometimes we, subject God to our own sense of reason - making ourselves gods and God...nothing. Nietzsche had that part right.

But God certainly hasn't abandoned us. After giving everything He doesn't just walk away... I don't know what alok means. God doesn't need to do anything again. It's done. It's finished...until he comes to claim what's His. And He will.

Inconsequential said...

I have to say I wonder WHY he would bother...

:)

As always, not meant to be insulting.

ish said...

alok, it seems to me that there is a credible message-in-a-bottle that we are not abandoned.

Missmelliflous. It's interesting that Islam affirms just about everything about Christ including virgin birth(!) but not the key bits in which lie the message of hope.

Good one inc., I agree. Why should he, would he bother? But just per chance, in the quirkiest of universes, he would, and he did ... oh mercy.

missmellifluous said...

inc. is absolutely right! I wonder why too and I thank God I'm not God because I'm not so sure I'd bother. God is gracious.

Alok said...

I donno, I havent seen an "incarnation" of late, neither I think it is coming ...

yes he looks on but i guess with an un-botheration ease

alok

ish said...

alok, thanks for the visit. Anything else you haven't seen lately? Does proximity in time or visibility determine reality?

Alok said...

u r right Steve, proximity in time and visibility has no relevance, for me HE exits in all of us, its just that we fail and sometimes refuse to see it .....

but I guess we were talking of re-incarnation (might be i have read u wrong) and I certainly dont see tht happening, call it HIS apathy or unbotheration, I somehow dont see tht happening in my (this) lifetime ....

Reality is HE exists (atleast to me) ... and I cannot define whts going to happen for I am simply incapable of it .... however if I have to apply my poor judgement, I somehow feel HE will adopt different means but incarnation ...

take care

alok

PS: I have tried to ans the questions raised by you ... dont know whther they r sufficient

Alok said...

re-incarnation was wrongly used above ... i meant (re) incarnation

my apologies

alok

ish said...

alok, is this the divine spark within us? I could almost come at that ... but I fear we are damaged beyond self repair, by our headstrong desire for power and other damaging obsessions. We want our own way. ('Sin', if you want to call it that.)

Alok said...

Steve, divine yes but then again tht is a very generic term .... everyone apllies the thght in different perspective ...

perhaps u r right ... call it may be our (collective) sin, but then this raises another point why shld all suffer becoz of many others (purposely not using 'some others')

but then Steve, God's grace and way of punishment is also so subjective ... some think tht if they kill others becoz they insulted their 'religion', it is their way of offering their obeisance and will meet with God's grace ... others (for the same killing) feels it our "sin" tht has led to this ....

but think of it .... if HE is the creator, and he made us so "powerful", hasnt it given us the responsibility and accountability ... Should HE really bother after giving us the power to think ... isnt our deeds be our responsibility???

take care

alok

PS:hadnt read missmellifluous' comment before ... none of my comments were meant to be insulting and my apologies if i have hurt anyone's sentiments ... tht surely wasnt the intention ...

mystic rose said...

Love!

and He did give us a brain as well, pure intelligence, not a mind. we make that on our own.

ish said...

mystic rose, I like your distinction. We do make up our own minds. The decision rests with us. Is responding to love (agape) the ultimate decision?

alok, Is your graciousness part of your upbringing? It wears well. Could those who think killing is in the will of God simply be wrong? It is popular to believe that all religions are morally equal. What if that is not true?

Alok said...

Steve thanx, coming back to ur question "Could those who think killing is in the will of God simply be wrong? " - u see thts exactly wht i meant when I said "right, wrong, good, bad" are all relative and subjective terms .... those guys hardly think tht is wrong, for them nothing is right other than wht they percieve to be the ultimate truth

My take on religion again is very simple, it is very personal and depends totally on how you interpret the readings .... one line tht runs thru all religion is yes the kindness required for fellow beings .....wht ever reading and understanding i have had of different religions, the common basic fabric runs thru all of, perhaps i was reading too much within the lines ....

Steve, I hope this will rest our discussion, becoz i sense we both r talking the same thing - human beings needs to be responsible for their own deeds, God's intervention will never be required if we started respecting others by our actions and deeds ...

alok

ish said...

alok. It is amusing that the discussion on your blog and mine have ended at the same point. But I must ask again, how can 'right' be subjective? Imagine an airline pilot or a brain surgeon thinking that! If 'right' for the pilot was merely personal and subjective he could end up taking the passengers anywhere!! I hope you believe in a unified field of knowledge. If so,'Right' applies to moral destinations in the same way it applies to physical destinations. If you take my example it is possible to be objectively wrong no matter what the person believes.

Nitwit said...

God is a belief worship within self or in some stone or human... whatever works for individual

ish said...

Nitwit said..."God is a belief worship within self or in some stone or human... whatever works for individual." Hummm... one could hardly give a better summary of our current spiritual bankruptcy. We settle for so little.

Randomist said...

Steve (or as I know you: Mr Isham), More than 15 years ago, within the reformed confines of Calvin Christian School, you taught me the 'practicals' of art and creativity, yet looking back, you also imparted an understanding of grace and Christian decency to me.

This was not achieved through method and text book, this was modelled and carried through persona and I thank you for this.

I appreciate the warmth, vulnerability and entwined faith in your writings. Rare indeed that Christ be painted in words holding both grace and fascination. Thank you.

Alok said...

Indeed Steve, I was also wondering the same thing ... and also tht the discussion somehow ended on the same note :)

well as to question "how can right be subjective" my view is based on a simple fact abt the way each one of us think and how differently we think ...

now thinking can be totally individual's perception or a collective impact of how the society has perceived things thru time ...

in both these scenarios we view things according to our perceptions ... objectivity is obviously there but then again it depends on who is thinking wht ... science teaches us to be objective but then who dont believe in science percieves things subjectively .... for example creation of earth is a very objective scientific deduction, however u wld have come across people who say earth is a God's creation ... now its a fact that earth exists however it's creation is totally subjective ... i m not contesting who is right becoz both the school thinks tht they r right, hence the subjectivity

If I have to continue the same example that u have given ... 9/11 is a very good example of how all planes do not reach their specified destination, now for the person who was flying those planes, that was the right thing to do ... if they had been asked, u wldnt have got any other answer .. to me and u it is totally wrong but then frm his point of view it is right ... hence arises the subjectivity

another example u cited of a doc, now the recent arrests of doc in UK and Aus, proves that well educated individuals who have been trained to save life with the pretext tht it is the right thing did wht they thought to be right and not wht we think to be right.. hence comes the subjectivity

I do believe in unified field of knowledge and thank God tht most of us do but then there r others who donot ... now both our beliefs are based on how we view objectivity ...

I do tend to distinguish between correct and right ... correct is objective to me, there is no ambiguity ... right has a perception hence there is subjectivity ...

i hope I havent been too confusing

take care

alok

ish said...
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ish said...

Randomist, I am humbled by your comments. If I came anywhere remotely close to being as you say... thank God for that. I am particularly grateful for your last paragraph, identifying so aptly what I aspire to here. If ever you are inclined to identify yourself either online or at say, Salamanca Market (if your are still in the area) it would be a pleasure.

ish said...
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ish said...

Alok, "...doc in UK and Aus...did wht they thought to be right and not wht we think to be right." Sure but is one of us correct? And does that matter?

Alok said...

Steve, yes that matters, because "righteousness" even if is subjective if followed for the best course of humanity by majority of people (who think right tht right way), it will help us achieve our dreams of a better and 'right' (of majority) world ...

Yes we who are in majority and who has the correct definition of right can make a difference, and not let the incorrect "right" to sabotage our humanity .... its we who are to ensure tht ...

thank u

alok

ish said...

alok: Should we have pity for a minority "who has the correct definition of right"? Might they have their "humanity sabotaged" by the incorrect "majority"?

Alok said...

Yes Steve, sure why not becoz I understand how they have been guided in the specific cases that we discussed above ....

Thats why I keep on saying, that what is right is often not the perception and understanding of an individual's perception but how the particular society in which he lives has percieved what is right thru times ... and as I said many a times many government / leader who lead these people are supposed to be blamed becoz they r who are misleading them ...

Now as to the question of the minority might be right, yes surely they can be right and the majority can be wrong, Tibetian example can be cited for this ... this requires patience, gathering support, collaboration and spreading the msg tht they believe in ... everyone understands the language of love .. over the years u can see how drastically the world perception has changed towards them .... but realise tht they spoke a language of non-violence

I would sign off steve by saying there is nothing called right and wrong.... I sincerely don't believe in these concepts becoz these are coins to lead individuals into believing wht others think right or wrong ....

let an individual develop his own identity, let him think on his own, let him see the way world think, let him be educated, let him read history and see how the world has evolved, but let him form his own perceptions, let tht not be imposed, lets encourage people to atleast be an individual first ... if there is coalition later on so be it ... it shouldn't be coalition first then the individual ...

take care

alok

PS: If you don't like my views or u think tht I should stop visiting ur page do let me know ... I sometimes do tend to come across a little hard but again as I said I don't mean to be insulting to others views .. tht surely is never the intention ..

ish said...

alok, you are most welcome. But alas, I fear you have not 'heard' me. We could drop it at this point and perhaps later I will hit on means of putting the morality issue in a way that bridges our divided understanding. Happy poem writing.

Alok said...

Thanks Steve ... I am sorry I couldnt get ur message ... my fault ...

U write poetry Steve, I just scribble (though I tag them as Poems)

Take care